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鈥淚t鈥檚 not often we get to talk directly to the politicians,鈥� said one audience member. 鈥淚 want to find out how much they really know about housing.鈥�

Housing minister Keith Hill, his Conservative shadow John Hayes and Ed Davey, the Liberal Democrat spokesman on housing, have faced probing questions many times before.

But last Thursday Housing Today鈥檚 Big Debate pitted them against one another in front of their toughest and most knowledgeable audience yet 鈥� the housing sector. The capacity crowd of 75 housing professionals was drawn from throughout councils, housing associations, arm鈥檚-length management organisations, charities, policy bodies and tenant management organisations up and down the country.

Housing is one of the biggest issues in the run-up to a likely general election in May. Labour has been throwing money at it since February 2003鈥檚 Communities Plan 鈥� by 2008 it will have invested 拢38bn 鈥� but it has also been dogged by opposition to its policies on opening up social housing grant to developers; giving registered social landlord tenants the right to buy a share in their homes; and the ongoing debate over a 鈥渇ourth way鈥� for councils to retain and invest in their stock. And Labour has repeatedly been accused by both the Tories and the Liberal Democrats of stealing their ideas.

As the politicians took the stage, each knew this was their chance to prove that their party was the best choice for the sector and its tenants 鈥� and potentially win the vote of Housing Today鈥檚 115,000 readers. They were outwardly jovial but as the grilling began, the gloves were off.

Over the next four pages you can find out what happened...

The fourth way

Question: 鈥業f someone came up with a way to change the subsidy system so councils could invest rental income in stock to meet the decent homes standard without extra funds, would you consider the idea or turn it down on principle?鈥�

Glynis Gatenby, head of housing operations, Mole Valley Council

Ed davey The answer to that is no.

I think we need to be more innovative on housing finance and government rules do not look at rental income in the way they should. We should look at future streams of rental income to borrow against.

We would need to consult widely on issues around the housing revenue account because there are impacts all over the place when you change that.

John Hayes I have no objections to local authorities managing housing or building housing. My constituency, South Holland [in Lincolnshire], is looking at building some council housing in villages and they have my full support. I want to look at how we can be more innovative in arrangements between councils, housing associations and the private sector.

How can councils cross-subsidise social rented housing with provision of market housing and, for example, in rural areas, how can we develop the exception sites policy to allow private developers to work with housing associations on this?

The question is really how we get extra funding into housing provision.

ED The Local Government Act 2003 gave prudential borrowing to councils for non housing account. Your lot [Tories] weren鈥檛 very happy about that 鈥� are you now saying you will give prudential borrowing powers for housing?

JH We would give local authorities more power to raise funds to invest in the provision of housing. A lot of large private investors would like to get involved in investing in rented housing. So let鈥檚 look at partnerships between the private and public sector to bring the money in.

We are not happy with the idea that councils should be forbidden from doing that by wider government rules 鈥� essentially if they do that at the moment, they would be financially penalised.

Housing Today The Lib Dems and Conservatives both say they would find ways to give councils a 鈥渇ourth way鈥� to fund meeting the decent homes standard. Why can鈥檛 Labour?

Keith Hill The government made it clear that if local authorities feel, after a careful stock options appraisal, that they can meet decent homes in the timescale out of mainstream funding, of which rental income streams are part, then we have no difficulty with that. Over 100 authorities have already chosen to go down that particular route. And recently a handful of authorities have taken advantage of prudential borrowing.

But we do have to recognise our responsibilities to the taxpayer and feel strongly we cannot allocate funding without setting conditions and being satisfied money is spent in a proper and responsible and efficient fashion.

That鈥檚 why authorities have to be two-star authorities to go down the ALMO route.

ED It鈥檚 not a question of allocating money. There seems to be an idea in Treasury that if you allow prudential borrowing in housing as they have done in other things that the tap will be turned up. But that won鈥檛 happen because you still have to meet the prudential framework.

The real reason Treasury doesn鈥檛 allow this is because it doesn鈥檛 trust councils.

But we are seeing improvement in local authorities and it鈥檚 time to change that culture. It鈥檚 time to embrace the fourth option because there are local authorities that can do that very well.

JH The future for local authorities is working with the private sector, bringing in outside investment into all sorts of housing work. It鈥檚 not a case of dividing up the cake differently.

Your verdict

鈥楬ill seemed quite relaxed and laid back鈥�

鈥淚 completely agreed with what they all said about needing a joined-up approach to antisocial behaviour 鈥� But Ed Davey was talking about acceptable behaviour contracts as informal intervention, and I see that as quite formal action. When I asked about homelessness as the result of evicting antisocial families, Keith Hill started talking about the homelessness strategy 鈥� I didn't see what that had to do with it, as it鈥檚 after the event. Overall, he seemed quite relaxed and laid back.鈥�

Winner: Keith Hill 鈥� 鈥渇or housing, not personally鈥�

Eleanor Roberts, housing officer, Kingfisher Housing Association

鈥楨d davey seemed to really know his stuff鈥�

鈥淜eith Hill was fudging. He seemed to be floundering with some of the questions and didn鈥檛 know about homeless 16- and 17-year-olds in bed and breakfast accommodation though that鈥檚 a massive issue for local authorities. But it was good he went to speak to the lady who asked the question afterwards and offered to write to her to follow up the issue.

Ed Davey seemed to really know his stuff and had practical ideas 鈥� I was really impressed 鈥� Did it change my opinion of the parties? Yes it did.鈥�

Winner: Ed Davey

Glynis Gatenby, head of housing operations, Mole Valley council

鈥楧id it change my opinion? Not a jot鈥�

鈥淚t absolutely astounded me that the minister and the Lib Dem spokesman had no knowledge of the high number of 16- and 17-year olds in bed and breakfast accommodation because it wasn't an issue in their areas. The Tory did have some interesting ideas, especially when he got trapped into saying he had nothing personally against councils building homes 鈥� that was interesting given that it was the Tories who imposed a moratorium. Did it change my opinion of the parties? Not a jot.鈥�

Winner: John Hayes 鈥� 鈥済rudgingly, because he displayed a better grasp of current legislation and finance鈥�

Terry Benstead, housing needs and homelessness manager, Middlesbrough council

鈥榃hat a load of twaddle鈥�

Question:鈥榃hat role do you see for small RSLs in the future of social housing developments?鈥�

Linda Milton, chief executive Waltham Forest Housing Association

JH The more focused, specialised and accountable to users an RSL is, the better it is likely to be. I know the Housing Corporation position has been to fund a smaller number of large providers.

But rather than consolidation, we should be looking at a flowering of diversity in the sector with local organisations accountable to local people.

KH At no stage as the housing minister have I ever been engaged in discussions about reducing the number of housing associations. It does seem there are powerful benefits of greater partnering among associations but at the same time we do recognise the focused work that many RSLs are able to engage in.

That鈥檚 why we are happy to see the Housing Corporation doing a lot of work with black and minority-ethnic RSLs and supporting them in funding.

Linda Milton That was a load of twaddle. You haven鈥檛 answered my question at all.

KH Yes I have, I have answered your question.

LM No you haven鈥檛. You haven鈥檛 answered it at all. Very good politician 鈥�

KH You cannot expect me to say that we have to continue with the 2500 RSLs currently in existence.

JH How many will go?

KH It鈥檚 not for me to lay a line down on this. It鈥檚 for the sector to decide.

ED It鈥檚 a bit disingenuous to say you haven鈥檛 given a clear steer, with cost right at the top of the efficiency measure.

Antisocial behaviour

Question: 鈥楪iving housing more powers to deal with antisocial behaviour will increase the number of evictions. How will your party handle higher numbers of intentionally homeless families?鈥�

Eleanor Roberts, housing officer, Kingfisher Housing Association

鈥業 make no apology for evictions鈥�

In contrast to some of the rhetoric that has been coming from the Home Office over the past few years, Keith Hill stressed that for the government the key issue was 鈥渁voidance rather than eviction鈥� and early interventions.

鈥淭here is an issue about higher levels of evictions and I make no apology for that,鈥� he said.

鈥淭he government places tremendous importance on the avoidance of evictions through early intervention by housing officers where families are showing signs of serious antisocial behaviour.

鈥淏ut it鈥檚 important that we recognise that the objective is to deal with antisocial behaviour.鈥�

鈥楳y fiancee is a housing lawyer鈥�

Ed Davey accused the government of placing its emphasis in 鈥渢he wrong place鈥�.

鈥淚 don鈥檛 think enough emphasis is put on catching the problem early on,鈥� he said. 鈥淢y fiancee is a lawyer in a housing association and she evicts people. But she says what really works is getting people to face their responsibility. She spends a lot of time telling off young children. They go with their parents to her office and she explains the consequences and gets them to understand what has gone on. She says police call-out rates have gone down by 85%.鈥�

Frank Field 鈥� Labour MP for Birkenhead and a fan of docking benefit from antisocial tenants 鈥� was also referred to with disapproval for saying antisocial families should be housed beneath flyovers.

鈥楽ociety鈥檚 greed causes bad behaviour鈥�

John Hayes agreed with both Keith Hill and Ed Davey, and backed a joined-up approach involving police, social services, housing departments, the private sector and the voluntary sector to 鈥渄eal with people who find themselves in these difficult situations鈥�.

But he added: 鈥淵ou have to look at the type of thing that drives antisocial behaviour. In a greedy, self-interested, materialistic society perhaps these are the types of things we have to look at.鈥�

David Armes, chair of Longhurst Housing Association in Lincolnshire, told the MPs that the housing sector was happy to tackle antisocial behaviour but that the police were more of a hindrance than a help. 鈥淭hey don鈥檛 know what they are doing half of the time.鈥�

Your verdict

鈥楾hey all demonstrated passion鈥�

鈥淚 was pleased that they all demonstrated a level of passion for housing. It鈥檚 easy in opposition to talk about what you'd do differently but when you鈥檙e in government there are some tough decisions you have to make. Keith Hill said there were 180 housing associations in the north-west London subregion and I think it's responsible for the government to look at whether that's the best way to deliver services.

鈥淛ohn Hayes did a fairly good job of promoting Conservative policies in a difficult environment but he was ultimately unconvincing that his party would actually deliver investment in affordable new homes. He was obviously passionate about right to buy, but not on the delivery of new homes. People say politicians are all the same, but you could see clear blue water and differentiate between them. You knew the housing landscape would be different under each party.鈥�

Joint winners: Ed Davey 鈥� 鈥渉e knew his stuff鈥� 鈥� and Keith Hill 鈥� 鈥渢here wasn't as much spin as you might expect. I think he was relatively straight鈥�

Juliet Rodgers, head of policy and communications Genesis Housing group

鈥楾hey had a pretty good grasp of things鈥�

鈥淜eith Hill鈥檚 response to my question about homeless 16- and 17-year-olds in B&Bs was obviously unsatisfactory. I was very surprised he didn鈥檛 know about it. But to give him his credit, he did ask for my details afterwards and said he would follow it up. I hope I'll be asked to provide further information. The other two had a pretty good grasp of things, though it鈥檚 easy to say what you鈥檇 do when you鈥檙e not in power.鈥�

Joint winners: Hayes and Davey - 鈥渢hey impressed me far more鈥�

Sha Wylie, housing personal adviser, Connexions, Hampshire council social services

鈥楾he feeling is 鈥渂ig is beautiful鈥�

鈥楾he most interesting bit for me was about small RSLs, as we鈥檙e trying to form one at the moment. The feeling from Labour and the Housing Corporation seems to be very much 鈥渂ig is beautiful鈥�. But the Lib Dem guy was saying that potentially if a small RSL was financially viable it can continue. If I had to vote now, I would certainly look at the Lib Dems, where I possibly wouldn't have before.鈥�

Winner: Ed Davey

Jeremy Carson, housing manager/director, Friday Hill tenant management organisation.

鈥業t was good to challenge them鈥�

鈥淚鈥檓 sure the politicians speak to tenants but it was good that professionals got to challenge them. They all seemed reasonable advocates for social housing. I鈥檇 hope they鈥檇 show such enthusiasm for it to all audiences. I was struck when John Hayes said he would give councils the freedom to build housing, as it seemed to me to go against previous Conservative policy. It鈥檚 great that all the sides said that we need more social housing 鈥� they recognise the importance of it.鈥�

Winner: John Hayes 鈥� 鈥渂ecause he said there should be far more accessible housing 鈥� that was marvellous鈥�

Graham Nickson, public affairs officer, John Grooms Housing Association